Battle and Co Talking Property
Regular podcast hosted by the editorial team from 'The Forum', Matthew Battle interviewing the people making the headlines across 'The Golden Triangle' property market.
Battle and Co Talking Property
Running up that Hill: Ryan Harris - The Hill Group
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Ryan Harris, regional director for the Western division for The Hill Group joined us for the latest Battle & Bunce Talking Property podcast.
Ryan, who has been 17 years with the housebuilder, described his route through education, where he (briefly) joined the academic world, before opting for more practical hands-on roles at building sites.
He joined Lovell Partnerships and became an assistant site manager after undertaking a management training programme, then a site manager for Balfour Beatty before joining The Hill Group in 2008.
Ryan discussed the planning hurdles, the market and the remarkable growth being planned for The Hill Group.
The Battle & Co Talking Property podcast Interviews the people making the headlines across property markets of Reading, Oxford, Cambridge and west London, loosely labelled the 'The Golden Triangle'.
Additional notes and details can be found in the weekly journal The Forum published by UK Property Forums.
www.ukpropertyforums.com
Welcome back to the Battle and Bunts Talking Property Podcast. We're here again at Hazam Estate Asians in Reading. Um and actually quite a chilly day, actually, the first day of autumn, I feel I feel. But but there we go. That's what's going on outside. Let's have a look at what's going on inside. And inside this studio we've got, and I'm really pleased to have Ryan Harris, who is the regional director for Hill Group and leads their Western Division. And I think you're based in Oxford? Abingdon. To all the people of Abmingdon, to lump you in with Oxford, I am very sorry. But anyway, welcome. However, before we start and and we get to understand more about Ryan, let's just have a quick introductory hello to Alan.
SPEAKER_00How are you? I'm fine, but I've just come back from Devon and left my razor down there, so I'm apologise for the uh don't normally have stubble because it's grey, so I don't tend to As it's a podcast and nobody can see you.
SPEAKER_01I don't think this is gonna be too much of an issue, but we have a guest. I don't know. I but perhaps actually might people have an image of you, you might have ruined it now. That's it. Actually it could grow a bit, couldn't I? Yes, I quite like that winter coat. No, don't don't grow a bit. Have you ever grown a bit? No. Good. Right, so let's crack on with this podcast. And Ryan, just before we sort of have a chat, you know, more the corporate stuff, nothing wrong with that. But how about you? You what's your background? I've I get a feeling you might be a hill chat man and boy.
SPEAKER_03Not quite. Yeah, I've been there since 2008. First found my way into the industry by doing a year out at Norfolk at the construction college, which was a residential course doing kind of general operations. So on the tools, laying concrete roads, driving the barber greens, driving dumper trucks, getting up in the tower cranes. Because when I left school I wasn't sure what I wanted to be. I was initially contemplating being a fireman, but you can't be a fireman at 16. So somehow the next best thing I ended up playing in concrete and driving dumpers around, which was a good thing.
SPEAKER_01I'm not quite sure what it is, but anyway.
SPEAKER_03I felt like a hero of construction, I guess. I couldn't be a hero on the street. So yes, I went there when I was there. I uh applied for numerous jobs. Lovells kindly swept me up and introduced me into their management training programme, which from my background was a great achievement and something I was really, really pleased to be involved in. So they took me under their wing, uh sponsored me through college, sponsored me through university. However, full disclosure, I didn't finish university. I'm not an academic.
SPEAKER_01Just as a segue, the apprenticeship route would have suited you, do you think, in retrospect, because we're getting so much really good feedback now the apprenticeship, especially on our awards programme, and um yeah, I just put that in by by the by.
SPEAKER_03I I absolutely I fully support the apprenticeship route. Um we have for the last four years sponsored the Oxlap Apprenticeship Awards. We were headline sponsored this year, and that means a lot to me because I get to stand up there and talk about my journey into the industry and the fact that I I was uncomfortable in that university environment going there one day a week. It wasn't for me. You know, I enjoyed myself out on site, I was learning a lot more out there. I sat in that classroom and I considered me myself to be ahead of some of my peers that were sat to the left and to the right of me. Uh and it it really spoke to what drive what drove me forward in terms of those practical skills and interpersonal skills as well. Um so to be able to kind of stand up at an award ceremony to what will be the leaders of the future, no doubt, and say to them, look, you've got the backing, you can achieve great things if you've got the right employer and you're in an environment in which you enjoy, you will become successful. I think they need that. There's not enough of that positive messaging, particularly from the schools. I think you find yourself in a situation. Well, I remember actually when I was at school, my career's advisor said, What are you doing going into construction? That's it's a dead industry. You don't want to be there. I think Dave's obviously got some bad experiences.
SPEAKER_01But where was home originally in what part of the country?
SPEAKER_03Devises, Wiltshire. Oh, Devises, okay. Well, okay. So you come to the I was one of three people that went into the construction industry. And to my knowledge, I'm the only one out of those three that that made it through.
SPEAKER_01So um Yeah, very good. Well, I d I think I think that that journey, and it's a hackney term, so I apologize for that. But um but I think it is quite interesting, and I think also you come from a different perspective, which is which which is helpful, and and no doubt you can approach situations in maybe a slightly different way, which we can explore in a minute. Okay, so yeah, so you joined Hill from Lovell's?
SPEAKER_03Did uh a period of time at Lovels. Then I joined Mansell's. Oh yeah. Uh they were then they were swallowed up by the Battle Media Group, and then I left them to join Hill in 2008.
SPEAKER_01Right, okay. And what was Hill like then? Because they have changed. Uh I think they're about a thousand people now.
SPEAKER_03Just show over a thousand employees.
SPEAKER_01They turn over one point one billion. That's that's incredible. They are, you know, some respects people see them as an SME builder, but they certainly are not that now.
SPEAKER_03No, no, absolutely not. I mean, when I first joined the organization, it was, depending on the optics, a sideways step, probably at best, if not viewed by my current employee as a backwards step. But I wanted to be with an organization that was kind of really driven, motivated, focused on delivering a good product, really commercially aware. And when I joined the business, I struggle to remember now, but we were less than a hundred million in terms of in terms of turnover, tenfold increase.
SPEAKER_01And do you think that original which Andy and obviously now Greg and the team are leading the business? Is that spirit, if that's the right word, is that still still relevant? Is that still true? Is it still there every day?
SPEAKER_03It is, yeah. I mean Andy, Andy Hill, the CEO, is still very much involved in day-to-day operations, and he's the heartbeat that holds this through the organisation, without a doubt. Uh his energy, his enthusiasm, his desire to be the best, he tries to instill that in all of his well, I was gonna say all of his senior managers, but across the group. Obviously it gets a little bit more difficult when you've got a thousand employees, but then that's our role. So he disseminates that kind of culture into us and we have to pass it on to the very teams.
SPEAKER_01And and you're obviously based in Abingdon. That's correct. Um and I know he'll well know he'll because I've been involved through the East Prop Awards, and Andy was nominated as Leader of the Year three years ago. However, that's over there, because over here, so to speak, you're involved with Oxford North. That's correct. Uh I was at the opening two weeks ago. We didn't quite get a chance to look around the scheme. But what else is going on in your region? Just give us an overview of you know what what's what's your patch, so to speak?
SPEAKER_03Well, my direct responsibilities is to oversee all of the operational functions across our developments. So that includes technical functions, commercial functions, production functions, customer service. And our patch broadly covers all of the Thames Valley. We don't have hard and fast headlines.
SPEAKER_01Uh BBO, Barks, Buckhamshire, Oxfordshire. Yes, correct.
SPEAKER_03We have gone into Hampshire, we have done a little bit in Hertfordshire, but in the rounds, it it's as and when an opportunity comes about that could be led by pipeline, could be led by uh relationships and size of opportunity. And and tell us more uh where's the biggest scheme? Is Oxford North the biggest scheme? Uh believe it or not, no. So the biggest scheme that we have just commenced is a 413 unit scheme in Windsor. Oh, okay, interesting. Contracting opportunity for us for uh the ABRI group. So that's all affordable housing scheme.
SPEAKER_01So you're contracted to deliver that on their behalf?
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah, yeah. Right. So our port what what we do as a business, just a little bit about the Hill Brand, is we we're a true mixed tenure organization.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03So we do private for sale for private customers selling off the Hill brand. We do contracting, often in a competitive market place, so we'll go out there and we're tender against the competition, but also direct negotiated, and we do joint ventures, so shared risk, shared reward in terms of whether we've got land holdings to bring forward or whether a client has, and we decide how we divvy up how we're going to apportion the costs, and then what we do in terms of split on the profits.
SPEAKER_00So you would be in poor position to talk about some of the things that come up in many of our podcasts, which are the issues that everybody is kind of driving them mad a bit. So planning system, that m that must be an issue for you, whatever whatever happens in your world. The planning system must be a a challenge, I would guess.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. Across all of our tenures, planning is a challenge. I think it's well publicised that is a broken system. Um it's too slow, it's convoluted, there are too many stakeholders, too many interest interested parties, and everybody's trying to please everybody. Yeah. And it's just clogging up the system. What I would say is the government has recognised that, and we ought to applaud the government for actually some of the interventions that they put into place. But nonetheless, whilst that's all well received, these things will take time to play through, and perhaps we'll pick up on it later on. But changes to the planning system, you're talking about getting a product on site two to three years' time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Because even when you get uh you know a planning ticket, you've still got your Section 106 negotiations. Well, y you try and put a timeline that might as well chuck a data at the board. It's just i i it's open-ended. You then got your conditions that you've got to unlock. And we do work with some authorities that are good at granting detailed consent and we applaud them for that, but then they don't have the resources, perhaps, or maybe it's a cultural issue around then dealing with condition discharge and minor applications. So I've got examples of pre-commencement, pre-development conditions that have been in with the local authority for three, four, five months. Right. So you're held up anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, is there an authority you can point to and say that's one you like to work with?
SPEAKER_03Um I think that uh there is a leading side. I wonder if they're listening to this.
SPEAKER_00Check the positive side, not say one that you don't want to work with, one that you do want to work with.
SPEAKER_03Who knows? I I well we want to work with them all. Uh I'm sure that no matter who you work with, be it a local authority or an organization, there's always going to be strength and weaknesses. But uh certainly Oxford, that's our that's very much. Yeah, Oxford City Council, that's very much our heartland, certainly for my region. We're doing a lot alongside them, want to be doing more. Uh we've got good connections there. Yeah. I think they've got again the right appetite to deliver on what is a very constrained city. Yeah, I think we can all acknowledge that. Um, but we've got to work in partnership to come up with the best solutions. I think it's it you you can't just place it all onto one party to resolve. You everyone's got to come forward with ideas.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But in Oxford, though, I mean we were speaking earlier and you mentioned that you've got a number of schemes in Oxford, and that can't be easy because that's like the most restricted city I would have thought that anybody has to build in because you can't build high, can you? You can't well, there's all sorts of there are a number of constraints.
SPEAKER_03Obviously, you've got the floodplain, you've got the green belt. Uh there are some other constraints in Oxford that are obviously as part of the policy that you know we'd perhaps like to see softened. The housing targets, 50% affordable housing, you've got low car or no car. Really I understand the want for the local authority to drive for that, but it is very difficult to produce a product, certainly on the open market, in a city like Oxford that doesn't have parking. You can't get the sales values from it. So there has to be a bit of a negotiation there. If you want development, then there's got to be a trade, there's got to be a bit of a trade.
SPEAKER_01I mean because ultimately the I suppose the the the corollary of what you're saying is that the council, um the Oxford, Oxford City Council, end up having to to build their own stock to satisfy demands you've just mentioned, which obviously they don't want to do. So, as you say, there has to be a negotiational sweet spot. Otherwise we're going back to where we used to be. Exactly that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you can't have your cake here. I don't know. No, I don't think so. I think that that there's some there's some exciting plans that are coming forward in Oxford, Oxpens being one of them, the Grenoble Road. But if I I think there has to be a negotiation. Sometimes you need people to take a pragmatic view on that, otherwise we end up in a situation like we are across the rest of the country where development grinds to a halt before then people kind of intervene and take action. And by then, the train's already stopped at the station. So it takes a while to get the wheels turning and get back up to s get back up to pace.
SPEAKER_01I mean we we're not here to talk about London, but I've just really about the the low start levels in London is um it's chronically. It's shocking. Yeah, I don't think people understand the significance. It doesn't it's not working.
SPEAKER_03No. I w I read something the other day, I think that London should be producing around 85,000 homes. Uh in the first half of the year there's five thousand. Five thousand. Five thousand. Wow. So if you say, well, okay, they do five thousand in the second half of the year, it doesn't quite work like that. They're gonna be delivering about ten thousand homes out of eighty-five thousand. A lot of that will be held up on the BSR, it's been incredibly challenging. We've got schemes stuck in that process. I don't know what you do or don't know about the BSR, but that's the building safety gateways. Yeah, the gateways. Yeah. Yeah. So what's that stand for?
SPEAKER_01Okay, just BSR is building safety regulator. Which is basically K ML to Groenfeld and the need to have two access routes, um, or far access routes, is that right, within the scheme? Uh the the over a certain height.
SPEAKER_03That that's enshrined in it. The part of the BSR process is what used to happen is you used to make an application to building control.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, they would start to review some of that information, give you conditions, and you continue to discharge those conditions as you move through the build. Post uh and what would happen as part of that it would be um people would put forward alternative material to materials, alternative construction methods to deliver a consented scheme. What the gateways were designed to do is to say, well, no, we want it fully designed, fully specified, and we will sign off on that, and that is what you will deliver. Okay, so there is no changing, there's no dumbing down of standards of quality, of fire safety and stuff. So uh the industry's on board with that. I think I don't think anyone can push back and say that the idea isn't right, but the implementation is has just fallen fallen apart. Lack of resource, lack of full consideration, and now you've got 35,000 homes stuck in the BSR, and you've gone from what was a 12-week determination period to an average of 43. Wow. So you think when we talk about viability, we talk about escalating costs and all those burdens, you've got schemes that are stuck in the BSR for a year, and that's after you've been on a planning journey that might have already been two years ago.
SPEAKER_01I mean you raised an issue of the point, which I was just going to mention and Alan can kick in in a minute, is that managing that process? How does Hill go about that? Because obviously you get involved in the land buying, development, and put planning within development, delivery, and sales. So you're you're involved in the whole process. If one of those parts of the process is broken, so to speak, how does that how do you manage that? It's quite tricky, isn't it? Is it just by volume?
SPEAKER_03Is it No, it's it well, the the benefit of of Hill's mixed model is we can kind of ride out those individual shocks, even short-term economic shocks.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Because you we have low rise private for sale, we have low rise contracting schemes. So on the contracting side, you're generating your turnover because it's someone else's cash. On the low rise private afford private, you are producing a product that's not constrained by the BSR. And it's kind of counter-cyclical. So normally one part of the sector struggles, the other one thrives, and so on and so forth. We are in a bit of a unique scenario here where you've got a flat market on the open market, and we've got suboptimal contracting appetite because of constraints on the RPs in terms of their balance sheets. So we're in a bit of a we're in a bit of a low spot. Register provider.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So normally what you would find in a in a in a low selling environment, you're pushing the affordable product. There there used to be lots of cash in terms of investing in uh affordable home shared ownership, social rent, affordable rent, and that would carry you through. Obviously the the margins are lower, but that's accepted, you're still generating the volumes. As things currently stand with those register providers, their ballot streets have been constrained because they've had to invest in fire safety off the back of Gremfell. You've got decarbonisation of their existing stock, you've got decent homes, as sure you've all read in the papers around mould and damp. So they've been having to divert divert their cash and their reserves into improvement of stock rather than investing in new homes. And I that that's reflected in the stats that you see. Registrations are down, new home completions are down, and that's because we're the market is kind of struggling, I would say.
SPEAKER_00Broader economic pressures as well. But you must be curious you've diversified enough to be able to you know soak up a problem here and do better over there. But I guess a small house builder is going to struggle with being able to do that enough to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03Oh, incredible. I I I I struggle to see when you think about what we've achieved over the last 26 years, and I say we, I mean Andy in the round, I do not think that today's climate is supportive of an SME being able to achieve what we have over that same period of time. It's an incredibly difficult landscape for them to negotiate and navigate.
SPEAKER_00It's almost like you can't I guess years ago you must have been able to build a house pretty much as you would like to, but now you kind of it seems like there's so many regulations and constraints that you must adhere to. You I can't imagine you can build a house as you ideally would like to.
SPEAKER_03No, the bureaucracy is i i is is strangling development, certainly for the SMEs. Because it's tying up your cash, you know. If you if you buy some land, you want to turn that cash over pretty quickly. And for all the reasons we spoke about earlier, getting through that planning system is expensive, yeah, slow. Uh if you can produce less than nine minutes, you don't have to put forward any affordable homes, which obviously can challenge you in terms of your viability and your margins. Yeah. But then you've got all the stakeholders in terms of planning conditions, Section 106 contributions, so on so forth.
SPEAKER_01Just picking up on Alan's original point with the the the government changes, are you seeing light at the end of the tunnel in terms of better? No, not yet. Not yet.
SPEAKER_03Are you hopeful or personally I'm hopeful. I think the mood in the market is somewhat subdued. Right. As I was saying at the start of this piece, it's these things do take time to come through. Yeah. So I think the medium-term outlook is I uh is positive, I would say, if we can resolve the broken system.
SPEAKER_01Positive in the sense that there's gonna be more planning applications coming through across your region or the Golden Triangle for the sake of discussion. Is it is that your Yeah, well I I would say across the UK.
SPEAKER_03Oh really. Not just across the areas in which I operate. Yeah. If you can unlock all the constraints that have kind of held up planning decisions over the years, that is gonna benefit benefit not just the sector, but it's gonna benefit the broader economy. So I do see green shoots there. I think there is more to be done in the short term though. People may or may not agree with with my opinion on this, but a lot of it comes down to confidence and rhetoric. You know, you've got government on one hand, 1.5 million homes over the next five years. However achievable that is or not, you've got to aim for the stars, haven't you? Let's let's be honest. So I get that. But then on the other side, there's all this talk of taxation. So the stuff that impacts developers and people working on our side of the fence is you've got rumours around increasing landfill tax. You may or may not be aware of that, but there's a 3,000% increase in landfill tax. Estimates are that's gonna have £26,000 to the cost of the home. So I don't really see well, who's gonna soak that up for a start? You've got rumours around delayed homes penalty because there's a belief about developers land stacking or not delivering out quickly enough.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03But developers will build as quickly as they can sell. There's why would we want to hold back? We want a quick turn on our cash. So that's that's kind of uh an unnecessary stick. You've got the building safety levy that's due to come in next year. That's adding another one and a half to three and a half thousand pounds per plot. So it's all cost on cost on cost. If you then flip that to potential purchases, you've got some discussions around inheritance tax that might come out as part of next month's announcements. You've got property tax as well. It's all I think there's a bit of trepidation there in terms of people in both in the sector and the uh and across the UK thinking, well, actually, we're gonna be worse off in a month's time. And when you've got that cloud hanging over you, it deters investment. People are always sitting on their hands and and waiting.
SPEAKER_01It does it does seem to be that, and um Yeah, okay, so we need to get a bit more positive, I think. Uh uh uh Ryan. Um one thing I was gonna ask you about, and we've been approached by a couple of people, uh one of them being Green Corps, just talking about modern methods of construction. And that sort of whole approach to design, I suppose, is what I'm after, just to see get your view on it, because there's always a balance between giving providing high levels of design as you have done at Oxford North, but yet you need a bit of if you can try and get some repetition in in design, that helps your unit costs come down to certain things. So I'm just wondering where are you with modern methods of construction and that general push towards more sustainable homes?
SPEAKER_03Well, we we're very much supportive of it. Uh within my region, actually, we are delivering two schemes that are using lightweight steel frame. So factory-assembled panelised systems that are delivered to site, similar to timber frame, but using lightweight steel frame. Delivered to site, stood up wall panels, prefabricated floor cassettes. So you're dealing with you're optimizing efficiency through your factories. Yeah. Yeah. You are, believe it or not, reducing transport to the site because actually they stack those lorries very efficiently. And then when you're on site, your uh assembly time is a lot quicker. Okay. So you're kind of taking away, you've got the benefit of uh the mechanised approach from the factory that helps take away some of the errors that sometimes play out when you're working outside in that natural environment with individuals. It doesn't solve all your problems, but it does go a long way to kind of helping produce a better quality product that you have more uh certainty over the outcome, particularly when it comes to time frames.
SPEAKER_00I think the perception is that you could build a a room in a factory, it's going to be cheaper. But I th is it cheaper?
SPEAKER_03Uh it is it comes down to volume, essentially. So you can do more. Yeah, so we can do more. We do have um a volumetric business that does uh does our bathrooms and utility cupboards, pods and pucks we call them, and it's all about volume from that factory. So that we're plugging and playing that into a lot of our RC frame projects. We're not currently using that within the West, but other regions within the business are certainly special projects, are doing a lot with that, um, and that is saving a lot of um man hours in terms of time because they're labour-intensive areas, bathrooms and utility covers are very standardized in terms of uh the setting out and the quality of the materials that go in there, so it's a better product, be it for a private customer or for an affordable partner. So we're using that as well. And we have done through um Andy's uh Foundation 200 pledge, which you may or may not have been aware of, which he announced several years ago. I think it was on the 20th anniversary. So Solus? Uh the Solus House is a spin-off from it. So it started life as Foundation 200 was uh Andy's gift to the homeless. Yeah. So he was producing two hundred independent volumetric units for single occupancy, which could be they got a sixty-year life span on them, and they could be used on unused areas of land or garage infill sites and so on and so forth. So that was his donation. And there was such a big take-up for that particular product that we thought, well actually there's a market here. So we spun off to the the solo house and then the geo house. So that's our kind of fully assembled volumetric unit. But they are standalone, you you we don't we we don't as a business entwine those kind of those uh volumetric approaches into our actual developments. Right. And mainly because what we do is all very bespoke and bespoke design doesn't really speak to mass production.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah Well you say sp bespoke design, does I I look at new houses and they're um there's a lot of things that in a new house you wouldn't have in a house from fifty years ago. So the dining and the kitchen room, the dining room and the kitchen is sort of has one, and I'm um looking at like how is it when you talk to people who are selling houses, they'll say you need a room for homeworking. Um is that is it totally different now? You have a has a house got a different thought process to one fifty years ago?
SPEAKER_03I think you well, certainly in the uh post-pandemic uh era there was a move to obviously working from home. So that certainly informed how we arrange the internal layouts of our homes. And a lot of that's fed back through our sales teams, you know, what is it that consumers want? You know, they're out there, they're listening, uh, they're receiving all the feedback, even when we're selling our own product, you'll often get people to come in and say what they do or don't like about the home. And it's about assembling all that data and saying, Well, actually, well, then what do we need to do to produce a product that speaks to the end user? And it's different things for different areas and different locations. So there is that there's that for us it's that continuous improvement. We don't really have um a standard house type for four well I uh we do up in the yeast, but in the RAM we don't have a standard house type. There's a cookie cutter arrangement, we just pick it up, plug and play, plug and play, plug and play. That's not who we are. It doesn't speak to our brand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. So I suppose it's different so you say regionally that varies then. There's presumably uh an area where there's a load of retired people, you won't have the homeworking requirement and things like that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we you've got to think about actually who's our target audience. So when we're going in, is it's one of our private developments and we're bidding on the land, we're actually thinking, well, look at the location. What's the demographic like? Who are we trying to sell to here? And then it's about selecting the right product that fits. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Next ten years, well, you see Hill going and I shouldn't you still be there? What what what's your plans? Where do you see the market going? Ten years from now? I'd have to get me crystal ball now. I think it's a bit crystal ball gazing. Well, the point actually, maybe maybe five years from now.
SPEAKER_03There's so much change going on. It does, yes. Well, it that's quite a timely question because we have actually just published a five-year business plan.
SPEAKER_01So I can answer that.
SPEAKER_03I didn't know that actually. There's been a lot of there's been a lot of hard work. Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_01I've got I've got an inside track, but not that good an inside track.
SPEAKER_03There um yeah, there's a lot of hard work has gone into that. It's taken, you know, Greg Hill, who's deputy CEO, has led on it. Um probably how I'm going to kind of summarise this doesn't do it a justice. I'm sure he won't thank me, but uh yeah, essentially over the next five years we'll double our revenue, so we're gonna go over two billion um in terms of turnover. Unit numbers, we have been producing around three thousand units, we're gonna be pushing up to about seven thousand in the business plan. Right. But very, very much we see that that is driven by kind of filling in the white spaces on our current heat map. We don't have any expectations as the things stand to push out into new territories because there's enough volume, we think, within the areas that we currently control. We're down at Bristol, aren't we? Down in Bristol, yeah. We're up at Coventry as well. Right. Up there, down in Crawley, and over at um in Cambridge. So we think that actually we can satisfy those needs within our current areas of operation. Time will tell, you know, if a big opportunity comes up that we like the look and smell of, then we might go and chase that opportunity, but there's no plans to. Um and it it's not revolution not revolutionary, the five-year plan. It's more do what we are doing and continue to do it well. So it's finding the right land in the right places, places where we want to build with products that we know can we can sell.
SPEAKER_01Just to push you back on that product bit, sorry to interrupt you there. Built to rent homes. Where what what's the view on that? Is that is that I mean built-to-rent generally, yes, we all get it, but it seems to be the next development, and it seems like people like Hill could do that quite well.
SPEAKER_03That's yes, well, interesting you say that. You say you haven't seen our five-year plan, but I suspect you might have you might have done a bit of a page turn there. So, yeah, a a couple of new bits in the plan is single family housing on the build to rent, because we haven't done any of that to date. We've done multi-occupancy, so your flatted accommodation, your apartment, but not housing. So that is something that that the business is open to and excited by. We think we actually there's a the gap in the market for us there, certainly. So that's going to be a focus. We're also going through, like most organisations, a bit of a digital transformation, how we can improve our IT systems, how we can weave in new AI to allow us to become more efficient and more effective. So they're probably the couple of the standouts. Um but it's about maintaining our reputation. Like I say, we're talking, started to talk there about us being a developer, but we are a contractor. We don't forget where we come from. Um that that's that that's embedded in our roots. So it's about delivering quality product and the quality service both during construction and after construction to local authorities and to those registered providers. Because without them we wouldn't be where we are today and we We need them as much as they need us moving forward, even if it is on our own developments where they're picking up and partnering us on the one hundred six. So reputation is everything for us because we don't have shareholders.
SPEAKER_00So the the AI thing which you mentioned there just interesting me.
SPEAKER_03What I would say is the the construction industry and housing industry is is is somewhat resistant to change, as I think y you can probably appreciate over the years. We've been laying brick on brick and brock on brock for God knows how many hundreds of years now. But there is a space for it. So it's all data driven. So it's about finding the right software that can harvest that data, take out all the manual input, and actually then regurgitate results that are quite useful. So it's being led by our financial director. We've got a number of organisations that are coming in and they're pitching obviously what their software can do. We haven't come down you know, we've not got a defined answer in terms of who we're going to select and what it's going to do for us, but we know that that is something that we very much need to face into if we want to continue to provide an a an efficient and robust service for sure. Because other people will move with the times.
SPEAKER_01Right, I as we've just spoken about AI, which seems to end every podcast these days, we're going to end like that as well. So, on behalf of UK Property Forums and the Battle of Months Talking Property Podcast, thank you very much, Ryan, for your time today. Well, an excellent interviewee we just had there. Ryan has a really interesting backstory. He's come perhaps a more circular route, but actually what it means is that perhaps he's got a greater depth and understanding of the product, uh and obviously uh housing development than other people, I suppose, uh who who come from maybe a different direction. Is that good? Is it bad? I don't know. What what did you think?
SPEAKER_00Well, i it it's always good, I think, because you've got somebody who's done the job, hasn't he? He's he's actually you know done a practical manual physical job and then gone into whether you call it management or the other side of things.
SPEAKER_01But Well he's the regional director. I mean, that's a big role, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but he's actually done it. That's what I just think, you know, so many people uh academics who have never done physical jobs, so we all appreciate how you know uh what it's like on site, really.
SPEAKER_01So I think one of the things just looking at the product which they're producing here was they seem to be very involved in the whole process. And it seems to me that is perhaps one of the keys to how they're different is that they're involved in, as I said, not only land buying, but development and within development design and planning, and then delivery, which is obviously construction, and then selling. And those four components, if you like, are pretty key, I would have thought, for their survival.
SPEAKER_00Didn't think to ask him, but do they sell their own, do they so yeah, that's that's quite interesting because you you're doing the whole thing then, aren't you? And you you don't if you've got a separate estate agent, presumably you need to go to that agent and find out their feedback and all that. But if they've got that themselves, they've got data that they can use.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's probably a joint agency, but I'm sure they do a lot of their direct sales, certainly my understanding.
SPEAKER_00But if they're gonna double their turnover in five years, that's kind of I guess that they know that it all works, don't they? Those four sections all work together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and also by the by the sounds of it they're gonna keep within the patch which they're in, which is basically South East England, I guess, up to the Midlands, um, which again is is really interesting. And I think the other thing which is we we we which I took away, and we've had this from other talks and podcasts we've done and and events is the role of the SME, the small to medium enterprises within the house building sector, is really in one sense incredibly important, but in another sense really difficult.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? We we've dealt with a few of them, we've we were really good, but they are shrinking in number, aren't they? So you you I suppose the only way you can go is to grow.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it seems to be a sort of scale discussion, which again um becomes a bit polarising, but it is what it is. Well called a day there, Alan. Thank you very much. Just wrapping up so that everybody is aware, we've still got tickets available for the Bulkshare Prop Awards, which is on the 6th of November, Reading Town Hall. We've got about 20 tickets left, so please do come along and get involved, and we're actively planning for next year events in Oxford, Reading, Cambridge and across the Golden Triangle. Finally, thank you for listening to this edition of the Battle of Bundes Talking in Property Podcast. Remember to sign up to our weekly journal, the forum, at ukpropertyforums.com for exclusive information about future membership events and news. And to get the next edition of this podcast, press subscribe.